Well yes, because liberals tend to believe in state enforced equality while libertarians believe in equality as a moral prerogative but one that cannot be imposed through laws and regulations because the state should not have the right to impose any form of laws that dictate morality or way of living etc. At least that’s my interpretation of it from conversations with libertarians.
So that means that libertarians will be against the use of state power to right systemic wrongs. Which I wouldn’t qualify as helping fascists but a lot of progressives do, which is imo a little bit intellectually dishonest.
The real problem though is that the US only has two parties so you have to choose one that overlaps with most of your views and for libertarians that ends up being the GOP due to the fact that their own party is an insane clown show worst than the GOP. But at the same time I’d like to point out that libertarian adjacent members of the GOP in the past are the ones who have made the biggest strides for human rights in the US. The party it is today is unrecognizable from the one it was 60 years ago. Hell, even 20 years ago.
But calling libertarian fascist just devalues the definition of the word, which the real fascist use to their advantage.
I wouldn’t qualify as helping fascists but a lot of progressives do, which is imo a little bit intellectually dishonest.
We are just treating libertarians for what they are. Not by what they claim to be.
libertarianism fertilizes right wing conservatism, is that it advocates against balancing systems of control (government). This means that since there is no entity intervening in affairs, there is nothing keeping a more excessively authoritarian entity from emerging. This is an oversimplification, but basically right-wing authoritarians want to weaken authority (even more benevolent ones) so that they can take additional power. (Again oversimplification, I also don’t like considering groups as monoliths)
Basically proto rightwing forces, can march in lockstep with libertarians because they both initially advocate for the removal of governing,regulatory, and policing institutions.
Thus I think this is what causes people to see libertarians and conservatives as overlapping, as both initially support the same goals and probably can be found in similar spaces. Once prevailing (more benevolent, or less malevolent) insutituions are removed, by joint action of libertarians and authoritarians, the authoritarins break with the libertarians and can now install their definately more malevolent instituion. (This malevolence may be incidental or the end goal, it depends)
If libertarians don’t want to be seen as fascist, then they should stop welcoming them.
I hear what you say, but again that’s intellectually dishonest. Libertarians find themselves between a rock and a hard place, so they inevitably choose the side that overlaps most with them.
What progressives want is also authoritarian, and libertarians are against authoritarianism on principle, whether it has noble or evil goals because the potential for abuse even with noble goals is too great.
Libertarians find themselves between a rock and a hard place, so they inevitably choose the side that overlaps most with them.
Yeah, there is a word for what they are overlapping with.
What progressives want is also authoritarian
I don’t see how prioritizing civil rights over property is authoritarian.
E: in principal I’m empathetic to the want to be left alone aspects of libertarians. History informs us that many of their ideas don’t work. Even by their own logic of robust individuals they do not work.
It’s one faction among many others, just like there are tankies on the left.
You can’t force social change from the top down. I’ll use the trans issue because what else. It’s not clear to me that there are any civil rights being violated when you say that they are not allowed in women’s bathrooms. Now do I think they should be allowed? Yes, but I think it’s up to the women to allow them in if they so wish to and the government can’t force it.
Are Trans men allowed in female bathrooms or are they now banned due to being male presenting?
If they are banned, then that is depriving the public of access to public facilities which their taxes pay for and the end result being a violation of their rights.
If they are not banned, then the original intent of the ban is bullshit and clearly a move to target a subset of the population and make public spaces less hospitable, which I would argue violates their civil rights to enjoy public spaces without harassment.
Trans people are actually not banned anywhere from using the public restrooms they choose as far as I’m aware. I was using it as an example because it’s perhaps the most salient one along with trans women in sports.
But yes my view is that there should be no law or regulation or order saying anything about this, it is up to the people who use the space to decide who is or isn’t allowed. Same with sports, let the leagues decide.
Florida already passed a ban that focuses on state owned or leased property like government buildings and state parks in 2023. Those are public restrooms.
The end goal of many libertarian policy is to empower corporations (weather libertarians had that intention or not). The guilded age in US history is pretty much what we would go back to.
You can’t force social change from the top down.
I know what you mean. Still the free market didn’t end slavery or give us safe work places. In those issues libertarians today are consistently advocating for those who are against those civil liberties and worker protection. Hence why they have rightfully earned the view of being fascists.
Well yes, because liberals tend to believe in state enforced equality while libertarians believe in equality as a moral prerogative but one that cannot be imposed through laws and regulations because the state should not have the right to impose any form of laws that dictate morality or way of living etc. At least that’s my interpretation of it from conversations with libertarians.
So that means that libertarians will be against the use of state power to right systemic wrongs. Which I wouldn’t qualify as helping fascists but a lot of progressives do, which is imo a little bit intellectually dishonest.
The real problem though is that the US only has two parties so you have to choose one that overlaps with most of your views and for libertarians that ends up being the GOP due to the fact that their own party is an insane clown show worst than the GOP. But at the same time I’d like to point out that libertarian adjacent members of the GOP in the past are the ones who have made the biggest strides for human rights in the US. The party it is today is unrecognizable from the one it was 60 years ago. Hell, even 20 years ago.
But calling libertarian fascist just devalues the definition of the word, which the real fascist use to their advantage.
We are just treating libertarians for what they are. Not by what they claim to be.
libertarianism fertilizes right wing conservatism, is that it advocates against balancing systems of control (government). This means that since there is no entity intervening in affairs, there is nothing keeping a more excessively authoritarian entity from emerging. This is an oversimplification, but basically right-wing authoritarians want to weaken authority (even more benevolent ones) so that they can take additional power. (Again oversimplification, I also don’t like considering groups as monoliths)
Basically proto rightwing forces, can march in lockstep with libertarians because they both initially advocate for the removal of governing,regulatory, and policing institutions.
Thus I think this is what causes people to see libertarians and conservatives as overlapping, as both initially support the same goals and probably can be found in similar spaces. Once prevailing (more benevolent, or less malevolent) insutituions are removed, by joint action of libertarians and authoritarians, the authoritarins break with the libertarians and can now install their definately more malevolent instituion. (This malevolence may be incidental or the end goal, it depends)
If libertarians don’t want to be seen as fascist, then they should stop welcoming them.
I hear what you say, but again that’s intellectually dishonest. Libertarians find themselves between a rock and a hard place, so they inevitably choose the side that overlaps most with them.
What progressives want is also authoritarian, and libertarians are against authoritarianism on principle, whether it has noble or evil goals because the potential for abuse even with noble goals is too great.
Yeah, there is a word for what they are overlapping with.
I don’t see how prioritizing civil rights over property is authoritarian.
E: in principal I’m empathetic to the want to be left alone aspects of libertarians. History informs us that many of their ideas don’t work. Even by their own logic of robust individuals they do not work.
It’s one faction among many others, just like there are tankies on the left.
You can’t force social change from the top down. I’ll use the trans issue because what else. It’s not clear to me that there are any civil rights being violated when you say that they are not allowed in women’s bathrooms. Now do I think they should be allowed? Yes, but I think it’s up to the women to allow them in if they so wish to and the government can’t force it.
Are Trans men allowed in female bathrooms or are they now banned due to being male presenting?
If they are banned, then that is depriving the public of access to public facilities which their taxes pay for and the end result being a violation of their rights.
If they are not banned, then the original intent of the ban is bullshit and clearly a move to target a subset of the population and make public spaces less hospitable, which I would argue violates their civil rights to enjoy public spaces without harassment.
Trans people are actually not banned anywhere from using the public restrooms they choose as far as I’m aware. I was using it as an example because it’s perhaps the most salient one along with trans women in sports.
But yes my view is that there should be no law or regulation or order saying anything about this, it is up to the people who use the space to decide who is or isn’t allowed. Same with sports, let the leagues decide.
Florida already passed a ban that focuses on state owned or leased property like government buildings and state parks in 2023. Those are public restrooms.
Ok well I didn’t know that, but it doesn’t change my argument.
The end goal of many libertarian policy is to empower corporations (weather libertarians had that intention or not). The guilded age in US history is pretty much what we would go back to.
I know what you mean. Still the free market didn’t end slavery or give us safe work places. In those issues libertarians today are consistently advocating for those who are against those civil liberties and worker protection. Hence why they have rightfully earned the view of being fascists.