NoneOfUrBusiness

At least read the link you are sharing my man.

I did.

Also Wikipedia doesn’t provide enough context for you to understand the conflict.

True enough, but I’m not trying to understand the conflict or making a deep point that would require such an understanding. I’m just saying that Kashmir division and Kashmir are different things. Also while they’re not especially committed, both Pakistan and India have “we own Kashmir” as their official position. This isn’t controversial stuff; it’s literally what both sides are saying in public.

I don’t know if you are Pakistani or not but they claim none of Kashmir or Jammu or Ladakh. They claim that it should be an independent country.

I’m not Pakistani, but this information is easily available on Wikipedia.

Though these regions are in practice administered by their respective claimants, neither India nor Pakistan has formally recognised the accession of the areas claimed by the other. India claims those areas, including the area “ceded” to China by Pakistan in the Trans-Karakoram Tract in 1963, are a part of its territory, while Pakistan claims the entire region excluding Aksai Chin and Trans-Karakoram Tract.

-Wikipedia on Kashmir. Also if you open the Wikipedia page on Pakistan or India you’ll find that Kashmir is highlighted as “territory claimed but not controlled”. Also while I’m not familiar with the details, Indian repression is very much existent in all of Jammu and Kashmir. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_abuses_in_Jammu_and_Kashmir#Massacres

How is that nuance relevant here? Because again, the conflict between Pakistan and India (and China) is over Kashmir the region, not a particular administrative division. Pakistan claims all of Jammu and Kashmir and also Ladakh, and the anti-Indian insurgency and Indian reign of terror are in Jammu and Kashmir. When it comes to relations and conflicts with Pakistan, Jammu is Kashmir.

Jammu[a] and Kashmir[b] (abbr. J&K) is a region administered by India as a union territory[1] and consists of the southern portion of the larger Kashmir region,

Ladakh (/ləˈdɑːk/)[10] is a region administered by India as a union territory[1] and constitutes an eastern portion of the larger Kashmir region that has been the subject of a dispute between India and Pakistan since 1947 and India and China since 1959.

-Wikipedia.

The name of the place is Jammu & Kashmir because that’s how India administers it.

Okay and? What point are you even trying to make? Because that’s an administrative distinction that has no relation at all to the subject at hand.

Jammu is Kashmir; Jammu and Kashmir is the name of Indian-administered Kashmir.

Right on time I’d say.

Oh shit.

I don’t know how legitimate his jailing was, but he (you’re talking about Imran Khan right?) was removed by a vote of no confidence, which at least on paper is a perfectly democratic affair. According to Wikipedia,

The Armed Forces has historically played an influential role in the country’s politics,[11][12] although it has declined in recent years.

After the resignation of President Pervez Musharraf in 2008, a sharp line has been drawn between the “military establishment” and politics and Pakistan is moving closer to becoming a democracy after general elections in 2013.

They’re not a democracy in any sense of the word, but things seem to be improving compared to the army’s political heyday.

Okay am I the only one who thinks this doesn’t bode well for democracy in the region? Modi will obviously use this as a chance to consolidate power, and the Pakistani army’s political role will likely see a resurgence after years of democratization.

There were also attacks on Indian states bordering Pakistan other than Kashmir.

Eh, we’re still in the prelude I think. Think second Sino-Japanese war. When China attacks Taiwan and belligerents all over the world align that’s when it’ll be a proper world war.

Exactly. Why do you think the US military needs more enlistees?

Yes, it’s a terrorist organisation

Okay, and? There’s no label that makes everyone you stick it with okay to bomb. According to international law (and common human decency), you have to look at what that person actually does before you can decide whether they’re okay to bomb or not. To repeat myself, no terrorist organization in Kashmir is worse than the Indian government’s reign of terror.

Indian security forces have been implicated in many reports for enforced disappearances of thousands of Kashmiris whereas the security forces deny having their information and/or custody. This is often in association with torture or extrajudicial killing. The extent of male disappearances has been so large that a new term “half-widows” has been created for their wives who end up with no information of their husbands’ whereabouts. Human right activists estimate the number of disappeared to be over eight thousand, last seen in government detention.[64][75][79] The disappeared are believed to be dumped in thousands of mass graves across Kashmir.

-Wikipedia. There’s a reason only Indian-administered Kashmir is the site of a decades-long insurgency.

The Indian army doesn’t tell people to kill Hindus,

Read the article before you make such claims. Because it quite literally does tell people to kill Muslims. There’s a whole subsection in the article titled “mass graves” ffs.

Indian schools don’t tell us to kill Muslims

Here’s my guess: They teach that India has a legitimate claim to Kashmir and Pakistan is infringing on its territory. If that’s the case, then given the shit Indian soldiers get up to in Kashmir separatists would have a case in saying that Indian achools and anti-separatist Hindu temples are sites of indoctrination and that makes attacking them okay. If it’s okay for you, it’s okay for them, because just as you have your terror attacks they have their mass graves and half widows.

I want to note that the war has broad support among the Russian public, so while it might not be Ukraine they’ll attack another one of their neighbors if only Putin is removed. See: Georgia, Chechnya.

But that doesn’t mean I’m going to take pity on Pakistan and denounce how my country is responding to their aggression. Fuck Pakistan.

I argued about the response to the massacre (which, by the way, hasn’t been conclusively linked to Pakistan so there’s no proof of “aggression”) with the other guy so you can just see that. Here I just wanna point out that no matter how accurate or justified the Indian response was, Modi will use this as an opportunity to curtail democracy and consolidate power further. Therefore, cheering on the strikes as “responding to aggression” is playing right into Modi’s hand. If you want to keep what little remains of your democratic rights you have to start pushing back on this now.

What I got from the article was some marginal complicity rather than June 2013 being a full-fledged US-supported coup. The US should’ve taken and should take a harsher stance against the Egyptian military junta, but that’s one thing and the US being implicated in the coup is another.

Why would an ordinary masjid host a well known, widely despised figure like Saeed?

Saeed? You mean Azhar?

If it was civilian infrastructure, why was the man leading the funeral a famous terrorist, and not a local religious cleric?

I have no idea, though I could think of a few reasons (including that the three people who would normally lead such a prayer are all dead).

If you join LeT, you are a terrorist. Doesn’t matter if you just go there to sweep the floors.

Yeah… no. According to Wikipedia,

The group conducts terrorists training camps and humanitarian work. Across Pakistan, the organisation runs 16 Islamic institutions, 135 secondary schools, an ambulance service, mobile clinics, blood banks and seminaries according to the South Asia Terrorism Portal

If everyone working in any of those activities is a terrorist, then by a similar logic all Indian government employees are affiliated with the Indian army and therefore valid military targets, “even if they’re there to sweep the floors”, because the Indian army is by far the biggest terrorist organization in Kashmir. If we reject that logic, then the three men who were killed in the strike are civilians who were affiliated with LeT’s peaceful wing. You can hate “indoctrination” all you want (if that’s indeed what they were doing); that still doesn’t make a building a valid military target. Unless you’d like Kashmiri militants to attack Kashmiri Hindu priests who advocate against separation from India.

The camp was for the purpose of Daura-e-Sufa, Daura-e-Aam and Khas are done elsewhere.

So for religious education with no combat purpose to speak of? That’s militant infrastructure? In that case any Indian schools are valid targets for Kashmir militants, because this logic goes both ways.

If ISIS opened a mosque near you, and you knew it was frequented by famous ISIS members, would you go there every Friday? It’s not just a mosque, it is an LeT mosque that spreads LeT propaganda.

Assuming the government takeover is just for show, which you haven’t provided concrete evidence for beyond speculation. that’s circular reasoning. Also, it’s entirely possible that LeT is condemned in most of Pakistan and still supported in Kashmir, especially since LeT is a lot more than a militant organization. I’d wager the people they aided in the Kashmir earthquake would be perfectly willing to go to their mosque, for example. It seems to me like you’re using excessively simplistic lines of thought to derive the conclusion you want.

Frankly, you’re just dismissing everything as coincidences.

Because everything you just mentioned works just as well as a coincidence as it would if your claim was correct. What you’ve outlined here, if charitably interpreted (or uncharitably depending on how you look at it) warrants a “hmm, maybe we should look into this further”, but doesn’t serve on its own as evidence that anything rocket-worthy was going on in Murikde.

I’m sure they have far better proofs.

Why do you trust the Indian army so much? Have you not considered the possibility that they simply don’t care, given that they’re taking orders from a known fascist?

But Pakistan shouldn’t be taken at its word.

Yeah I agree.

Not only that, Azhar gave a speech there after being reported missing for two years on, again, Nov. 30 2024, in Muridke.

Yeah that’s circumstantial evidence, which makes it slightly more likely but doesn’t prove that the camp was active in 2024.

Otherwise, why would those three LeT members die, if it was only civilian infrastructure?

Do you have a source for the claim that three LeT members died? Because the reporting I found said they were JuD members who lead prayers and acted as caretakers for the mosque, in which case that’s your answer for why they died in the strike. Also, if they were indeed LeT members, maybe because they were there for any other reason? I mean it has a mosque and a madrasa, places Muslims would want to go to for reasons other than to attack India.

Why would Rauf lead the funeral at that camp, record it and upload it, if that very location did not have any terrorists?

Why not? I’m not sure what exactly you wanted to happen here.

Why would Azhar feel secured enough to be right there and give a speech and record it, making it available to any journalist with an internet connection, in full view of his location?

Because he was confident nobody would turn him in? I don’t see the connection between this and Muridke being active.

Everything you outlined here is, as I said, vaguely related circumstantial evidence that only serves as evidence if you’re already convinced Muridke was being used as a terrorist camp. You still need cold, hard evidence here, and I see none.

Would Egyptians themselves support the genocide like we know most Israelis do?

Absolutely not, but Egypt the state is still very much in bed with Israel. Also do you have a source for US support for the coup?

There were several points you straight up ignored.

Yeah, because they’re all from before 2019 and therefore don’t counter the Pakistani government’s claim that they took over the camp in 2019.

Forgive me if I, or even academics like the ones above are sceptical of Pakistan’s claims of taking over that mosque

Fair enough, but I expect more than skepticism as justification for bombing what is ostensibly civilian infrastructure, and from what I know if India has evidence it remained in use as a terror camp after 2019 they haven’t provided it.

Edit: I didn’t directly respond to your points this time either because while they do prove the Pakistani army is in bed with terrorists, they’re not proof that this particular camp is being used by terrorists. Civilian infrastructure (or what is claimed to be civilian infrastructure) shouldn’t be bombed based on vaguely related circumstantial evidence and vibes.